Okay, let’s talk about this piece of idiocy before I head off to bed and hope against hope that my sinuses stop pounding by the morning.
The short summary: Undead Labs, the studio founded by a few ex-ArenaNet employees, recently hired on a one Mr. Richard Foge as a game designer. Foge’s first public act as a dev and employee was to come out with an oddly provocative manifesto in which he bashes MMOs, puts down PCs, wishes upon a star, and tells us how awesome action console games are. From a journalistic standpoint, it’s full of unbelievable money quotes; from a player standpoint, it’s kind of off-putting and even trollish.
Now, I’m perfectly okay with devs being outspoken, opinionated and dedicated to challenging the status quo. But this comes off as written by a forum fanboy who’s trying to pick a fight with a crowd that wasn’t particularly interested in fighting him to begin with, and will almost certainly pigeon-hole this unnamed zombie MMO as being console elitist.
I want to break down some of his more intriguing quotes and offer a slight rebuttal, because this is too juicy to ignore.
“I don’t like MMOs. I love the idea of MMOs.”
My first thought when I read this was, “Why did Undead Labs hire him at all then?” It’s like offering a head coach position to a guy who’s stated in public that he doesn’t like football, but he does like the idea of it.
In my opinion, if you’re not a huge fan of MMOs and you’re not crazy passionate about them, then you have absolutely no business being part of their development. These games are a labor of passion, love and intensity, so is that really the place for a guy who just loves the “idea” of them?
“I’m an action gamer and that’s just not what MMOs are right now.”
One word: Vindictus. One word: MAG. One acronym: APB. Two words: Champions Online. Two words: Tabula Rasa. Three words: Dungeon Fighter Online.
I’m not saying all these games are great or even available right now, but this quote is incredibly ignorant of the fact that, yes, action MMOs do exist. It’s important to note that they’re not overwhelmingly popular, which is probably why we haven’t seen more of them. Mr. Foge is not the first person to conjure them up from his deep imagination. But at least he wears his bias on his sleeve…
“In my mind I always pictured my friends and I piling into a car and tearing off into a massive world. They would lean out of the car, shooting and swinging bats. Why aren’t MMOs really like that?”
Uh… ’cause Petty Vandalism Online wasn’t really in high demand? What kind of low-quality daydream is this? I really don’t get what he’s getting at here.
“In my mind I always pictured my friends and I raiding the kitchen for twinkies and ding-dongs. Why aren’t MMOs really like that?”
“MMOs get breaks because of their social nature, but if you really look at them closely they’re barely even games. Mario 64 (nearly 15 years old at this point) feels better than any MMO I’ve ever played. MMOs aren’t even close to keeping up with cutting edge videogames from a gameplay or presentation perspective.”
Here is the crux of his flimsy argument: MMOs suck because they aren’t as good as Mario 64.
Seriously.
In fact — hold on to the seat of your pants – they’re barely even games!
I honestly don’t even know where to begin with this, other than to look at Undead Labs again and ask “Why did you hire this guy? Were no red flags raised in the interview?”
I don’t know what criteria he’s using for “game” and “not game”, so I really don’t know how to address his sweeping generalization that MMOs have only a tenuous connection to gamehood. Obviously, there’s a lot of subjectiveness going on here — he, for some reason, loves Mario 64 and that’s become some sort of gold standard against which games are compared.
But I am prepared to debate that last sentence, because MMOs have as much if not more claim to “gameplay” and “presentation” as anything on the market. Sure, there are flops and there are middlers, but there are plenty with gorgeous graphics, tight UIs, expansive worlds and intriguing storytelling to put it up against, say, God of War’s gore-a-thon.
“I’m a console guy. I always have been. I cut my teeth on the NES, playing Mario 3 and Contra. I got completely sucked into A Link to the Past and Super Metroid. The FEELING of interacting with the world has always been stronger for me on consoles; it’s what they’re made for.”
A rarity in today’s gamescape: the hardcore Nintendo fanboy. Again, the last sentence in this quote is not only subjective, but vaguely nonsensical. Consoles are made with the intention of providing a better, stronger feeling of interacting with the world? I don’t get that.
What I do get is that the boy loves console games. And that’s okay — I did too, particularly in the same era (NES/SNES) he mentions. There’s a lot of love and nostalgia for those games, and if this article simply took the standpoint of “I loved these games and want to marry the feel of them with MMOs”, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
Unfortunately, he’s trying to talk up his perspective by putting another one down — namely, that current MMOs lack baseball bat-bashing and world-feeliness, and that PCs aren’t as good as consoles. It’s smack-talk, just not from a whiny kid on Xbox Live, but from a professional game designer. Awesome.
“What about MMOs? What if we replaced all the math with action? What if an MMO could feel like a kickass console game?”
He goes on to talk about just wanting a single button to swing a weapon and have it hit if you’re in proximity, and another button to dodge that would work if you just timed it right. In other words, an action MMO.
Two problems here. One, the math he so hates is an essential part of any video game ever made. Not just MMOs — every game ever made. Games are not created from a developer’s loving whisper into a microphone detailing a fantasy list of wishes and wants — they require coding, subroutines, and a buttload of variables, equations and math. Considering that this guy isn’t new to game design, he should know this well — I mean, I know it, and I’m no designer at all.
The second problem is one of insinuation, which is that current MMOs are so into their nefarious maths that there’s no action whatsoever. What Foge is trying to get at is a frustration at the approximation of action that most MMOs rely upon — a graphical representation of the skills you select, the enemy response, and the interaction of various under-the-hood stats and numbers that goes on during any given battle.
MMOs have had to do this for technical reasons, because when you have many people interacting in the same virtual world via the internet, there’s ping and lag and a lot of back-and-forth computer chatter that has to happen. So MMOs fudge it a bit here and there to make it work, but over time the speeds have increased, the code tightened, and the gap between the math of the combat and the visual presentation of the results has narrowed. We are, in fact, getting closer to the point that Mr. Foge desires.
But again, he’s describing a console game with zero ping because there are no online factors to consider. He’s hardly the first designer to want this gap narrowed and is working to make that happen, but he’s surely acting that way.
And if I wanted to turn the tables on the subjective feeling of feeling and action in MMOs here, I’d say that it’s pretty condescending to assume that MMO players find their combat boring, without skill, and lacking that baseball bat factor. MMO combat can be quite exciting and tactical, and you have some games that focus more on response time and reflexes, and others that are more geared toward strategies and maneuvering. Two paths, equally valid, because people like different things.
“I believe that MMOs can and should compete with the best triple-A games. And I believe consoles are the perfect place for MMOs to make this stand. Together we’ve learned tons about the power of persistent worlds from today’s PC MMOs, and I’ve personally spent years working on top-tier console action games, so let’s bring them together.”
We’ll end with this quote (the remainder of his article is pretty non-offensive “Our game’s gonna ROCK!” cheering, and I only wish there was more of that and less of these quotes). I don’t really care to get into the “us vs. them” of consoles and PCs, but it’s obvious that he does. PCs may have pushed this MMO fad into the public mainstream, but it’s only consoles that will pick up the ball really produce a AAA winner.
This will undoubtedly rekindle the whole “why aren’t more MMOs on consoles?” discussion, but it’s safe to say that if it is that obvious that consoles are more ideal for MMOs than PCs, and that easy to get them on there, then we’d see far more than the paltry handful we’ve experienced thus far. DCUO and FFXIV will join this select group within the next year, and we’ll see if they can make headway, but console MMOs are, for all intents and purposes, still an idea in infancy.
And let’s not forget that another gap’s being bridged as we speak — PCs and consoles really are becoming a lot more alike, technology-wise. Consoles are just specialized PCs, after all, and PCs are utilizing many popular aspects of consoles (game controllers, gamer social networking) in return. DCUO and FFXIV are coming out for both platforms because the devs wisely want as wide of an audience as possible, and they’re not as concerned with platform pride as a result. There’s nothing really that makes a console intrinsically better or worse than a PC these days, and whatever distinction there is is going to fade over the next decade.
Anyway, I could probably go on for a while more about this manifesto, but I should shut up now. Hopefully, Undead Labs will sit on this guy before he does them any more PR harm.
So stupid. Let’s see him shut up and make a good game instead of talking about how awesome this game is going to be.
First remark: Not defending him. Thats out of the way.
For mario 64, it had what over a dozen different paintings to jump into each with numerous different things to complete right? I guess he basically likes the idea of an expansive world with a sand boxish feel. I was young when I played mario 64 so I don’t really remember much but I don’t think there were any quests or much direction to what to do now. If thats his opinion too a console sandbox game doesn’t sound too bad. It might not be another vapid shooter.
(You touched on this but I felt like repeating it) As for math, beyond the fact I think he actually meant what he said about taking out the math as much as possible, if he has his way we probably won’t see much of the underworkings of stats. So no eve 15% bonus to this or that. Have to market to your console-tar…umm yeah.
All in all just from your quotes this dude sounds like the epitome of the term “console-tard”. Like a far (pick your direction) politician. I hope that dcuo ffXIV and dust 514 give console mmos are good rep because I am really starting to fear this one, and not because it has zombies.
I believe the cliché goes, “There’s no such thing as bad publicity.” Having cut my gaming teeth on consoles as well, I take a different approach.
Reminds me of an old contest between pen and paper roleplaying GAMES versus the strategy GAMES of that era: there were distinct winning conditions for the latter, where as there were no set winning conditions for the former. And still are not except for competition games.
The same applies to MMO’s, more now than ever: there are no gamelike winning conditions present in a MMO(RPG) as such, at least not comparable with -say- console action games. In MMO’s you go and do what you please, when you please and play the game to have fun and pass the time. The game is what you want it to be.
Mr. Foge is this achievement driven guy, who has to have set winning conditions ahead and see his progress constantly. His basic thinking of a game is way different than that of RP gamer. His basic thinking is closer to that of a devoted progression raider: the last boss is winnable and we have to be the first. That competitive and gain seeking attitude suits pretty badly into a MMO, especially with the RPG in it.
Then again, I’ve never understood this attitude of people speed levelling, progression raiding and complaining how there is no content when they have passed the content and think that the last raid boss is the end of the content anyhow…
C out
Lets keep the perspective that this guy wrote on a Blog post, not a media statement.
He never threw any specific attacks on particular games and only critisized the over arcing passive mechanics used to calculate damage. You name Champions as an action MMO but clearly that game still uses the same passive formulas for dodge, block and such.
Also, as a writer you should be able to identify some of the tools he is using instead of intentionally deconstructing his words to suit your agenda.
“I don’t like MMOs. I love the idea of MMOs.”
Here he is employing a paradoxal justaposition to express his love with the concept and incompatibility of it’s exececution with his ideals. To question his place in an industry because he is not satisfied with the current paradigm means we will be left only with designers who conform and will leave the industry stagnant, or stunted in growth.
Despite the fact that I feel your reaction to his blog is almost point by point an exersise in paranoia, overreactions and intentional misinterpretation I will point out the irony.
…. written by a forum fanboy who’s trying to pick a fight with a crowd that wasn’t particularly interested in fighting him to begin with…..
The fact that I came across this in various forms of PC fanboys ranting over twitter or sites like massively when it was posted on the Undead labs website and not promoted in anyway in the PC game community means that quite a few arrogant PC gamers have latched onto this and taken offense at somethign written in an opinion based format (A blog) on the website for the fans who are following the game.
PC Gamers need to enjoy thier games more and look over the fence less if all they are going to do is critisize and rant about one guys opinion.
The difference between him and you is he only critisized systems and gave evidences of his personal opinion (i.e. Console games are more responsive and more reactive to a Player and MMO’s almost all use formulaes for Hit percentages, damage mitigation [BTW when he says games without math he means maths to calculate gameplay outcomes, not in the sense of no maths in the coding... Clearly]) You made personal attacks and out of context quotes to satisfy you’re ego for whatever reasons
Many of us, in fact, own more than one platform. But as a gamer, who enjoys MMOs, I feel that yes, Syp is right – this guy sounds, far before the release of their game, like a hardcore nintendo fan, absolutely dissatisfied with current MMO conventions. That’d be ok, but he then goes on to put MMOs down as games. When you’re meant to be developing and promoting the idea of a bigger Left 4 Dead, making it sound as though you think every current MMO system is badly designed – is a bad idea.
You can’t just totally “start from scratch” when developing an MMO, throwing out all previous designs. Many of those basic designs are tried-and-true, perfectly working basics. And as Syp says, the idea of perfect zero-ping action is nice, but check out some lag-compensation code – it’s FULL of mathematics, whether to let you swing a bat in L4D and have it connect, or let you fastcast spells in WoW.
On one hand, I kind of identify with what he’s saying. It would be nice for MMOs to bring in some of the snap and instant gratification given by taken interaction and interacting with the physical environment; some are doing this now, namely Vindictus as a close match to console beat em ups, but most rely on the “click button, see skill, wait for GCD, maybe move if the boss is doing a cone/ground effect attack.” Game worlds function as settings moreso than interactable set pieces.
Then again, what he’s missing is that the whole intent of an MMO is quite different from the average console action title. It’s not about instant gratification so much as the epic journey, the heroes quest. A console game is, what, 20-30 hours if it’s above average, 60 if it’s a Bioware or grinder RPG? That gets you like level 18 in most MMOs. The two are just very different in scope and how they’re executed as a result.
In their EGM article, I got the definite impression that they’re working with some majorly conflicting design principles. High action yet interspersed with periods of big downtime gardening and, well, plain out not fighting or exploring. It makes me wonder who exactly they’re trying to satisfy. Obviously it’s not the normal MMO crowd as his post suggests. I don’t know many people looking for a zombie action game that would choose to play at the slower MMO pace they’re building in. Halfway for each audience? Good luck on that one.
They’re really going to have to hit the perfect balance between the two design types, otherwise I’m betting they fall flat on both.
er, make that “instant gratification given by taking action.”
Wow people are really overreacting to these statements. I didn’t agree with them all but one massive agreement I had was that most MMOs have had really poor gameplay when compared to single player RPGs, action games, etc.
I mean the fact that you could jump in WoW was listed as a feature when it was released. For Blizzard’s next MMO I hear we’ll get crouch! >.>
Every gamer who only plays MMOs is taking this way too personally because so many MMOnly players enjoy the glorified Facebook game experience. The antagonistic attitude toward anything approaching timing, coordination, and skill, has been one of the major reasons gameplay in MMOs has largely remained the same for the past ten years.
The fact that Champions Online is considered an “action” MMO just shows how low the bar is for really interactive gameplay.
An action MMO shouldn’t have melee attacks on a skill bar. We should be able to hit a button that reacts differently depending on which direction we’re attacking from. How far we are from a target. We should be able to have various jump heights/lengths depending on if we’re running or jumping from a stand still. When something misses the animation show show that. Obviously if you aren’t going for that type of game then so be it.
Just remember the biggest single player RPGs are playing like shooters (Mass Effect 2/Fallout 3) and MMOs are still playing like a heavily watered down Blauder’s Gate. I could see where the desire to bring up the gameplay quality would come from.
I didn’t have a good opinion of consoles because most of what I remember from the 90′s was side-scrolling or fighting games, which never really appealed to me. But I bought a PS2 in 2002, really enjoyed playing games like SSX Tricky and Ratchet & Clank, and revised what I thought of consoles.
But I’m really a PC gamer at heart, the genre I enjoy the most are MMOs, then strategy games, and those just don’t work well on consoles. To me this is more of a style issue, some genres work better on PCs than consoles, and vice versa.
I can appreciate that this guy intends to “break the mold” so to speak and release something new and exciting into the field… but talk is cheap and the proof will be in the gameplay. He could have just shot himself in the foot and created an antagonistic feeling for his studio’s game before it even ships.
Disappointed in ya here, Syp. Talk about a knee-jerk reaction. He must’ve really tweaked your PC Gamer!!+1! nerves.
Look, I’m a gamer. Started with Pong. That was a console. Then arcade games (remember arcades?). Then they made home consoles that played more than one game. Finally computers (not even “PCs” yet) came along and they too played games. MMOs have been disappointing me lately and I’ve been doing far more console gaming, and I think I get what this guy is trying to say, because it sounds like a lot of what I’ve been saying. Which is not necessarily have anything to do with platform-exclusivity.
“From a journalistic standpoint?” Really? It’s a BLOG! Not journalism. Just like this blog. How would you rate the “journalistic integrity” of this post? It’s hardly unbiased.
Should he have come out swinging like he did? Probably not, because while perhaps he was very enthusiastic and excited when he wrote it, we weren’t there in the room with him so a cold reading that we’re all doing makes him sound a bit arrogant. But so do big name PC developers, and these days, especially big name MMO developers. The guys at Mythic during WAR’s pre-launch phase come to mind, as do Bill Roper, Jack Emmert and others, including some of the Blizzard guys.
I plan to write my own blog article on this (including other factors) but we’ll see if I have time; I couldn’t get to it last night.
Scott: The “journalistic standpoint” refers not from his end, but from the media reporting on what he said. As in, this can and most certainly will get picked up by the press.
I’m not standing up for PC gaming over consoles — as I said, I like both, and if he likes one over the other, that’s his opinion. But when he puts something down just to prop up his own viewpoint, that’s where and when he should get called on it.
Not going to get into it too much, but a few things I latched on to:
1) His dislike of “math” seems more aimed at the RPG elements of MMOs (stats, experience, etc.), which when you consider all the console titles he listed as faves, kind of makes sense.
2) Clearly this guy is trying a bit too hard to earn console street cred. I cut my teeth on Mario 3 and Contra, yo! H to the Miyamoto! Word to Konami! Given Undead Labs’ focus for their game, I guess he must have sold them on his passion for the platform.
3) The whole Action MMO thing… Not sure exactly what he’s getting at here but if they can deliver Batman: Arkham Asylum/City in a massively-multiplayer persistent world I am aaaaaaaall over that.
Borderlands is currently the closest people will get to a true action MO on the console, provided you remove the massively M. I just don’t see it taking off the same way that PC MMOs have with the ability to communicate more effectively with your companions (without having a 9yo screaming cursewords into your headset on XBL).
Foge has such incredible potential to be the next Craig Zinkeivich! Can’t wait!!
“I honestly don’t even know where to begin with this, other than to look at Undead Labs again and ask “Why did you hire this guy? Were no red flags raised in the interview?”
Perhaps they hired him because he has nice legs and looks good in a dress?
He’s right.
None of the games you list Syp are really MMOs, but multiplayer console games given a grind. DF online is just Final Fight with a level track. Vindictus is your average Ps3 action game. CO the majority of what you do in it is solo, and you can play the entire game with zero group interaction except for three lairs. MAG is just a larger version of FPS like SOCOM, and APB was similar really.
Most of the other games are BORING. You run through a f-key rotation and once in a while, move your character. Most of your success is following the correct build and farming the correct pieces for it through repetitive actions like crafting or running instances for drops. Skill doesn’t matter much except for being awake and being able to stand boredom. While it matters in PvP 9 times out of 10 the game system is set up based on stats, so skill usually can’t overcome the math disparity.
I mean, come on. Do you really want a zombie game where before you need to fight, you need to eat food and drink for buffs, cast 3 self-buffs on you, then pull the zombie at range? Look at Fallen Earth. That’s probably the poster example of his gripe: a game so heavily reliant on math and the staples of the Diku MUD genre that for many people it’s a chore to play.
Look at it this way. Current MMOs are Resident Evil 1. He wants to make his Resident Evil 4.
It is kind of a “put up or shut up” moment. Here he’s laid out a bunch of opinions and he is in a position to ACT on them. Go make it happen man, and best of luck to you! We’ll see what comes together in a couple years. This is the sort of thing that comes back to haunt people, dishes best served cold and all that. Let your ire simmer.
I get a couple of his points and give him credit for what he is getting at, even if I do not fully agree.
Hopping in the car and waving bats and guns seems more a desire to be able to get online and into some action right away. We’ve all faced the “I have two hours to play and I want to do something in my favorite MMO, but it might be two hours just to get things lined up.” EVE Online is clearly not his ideal. Instant action just happens to go against the grain of a real, persistent world with a sense of place and size.
And the math thing is a sore subject. As Snafzg said, I read this as more being down on things like stats, bonuses, and all the stuff that mere mortals need to visit places like Elitest Jerks to get figured out. Even Blizz has said they want to cut back on the amount of visible math that people have to fumble with. But the math thing is mired in the D&D roots of the genre, so it is tough to shake it.
Anybody who proposed programming a computer without math would clearly be in the loony bin category.
Dblade: If you want to quibble over what is or is not an MMO, fine. They’re generally accepted to be MMOs, and I’m going with that. And what is it about what he’s describing that’s any different than these other games? It’s an action game with a multiplayer component.
Well, none of those games are the mainstream if you are generous and define them as MMOs for the sake of argument. Tabula Rasa is dead. CO is limping along, and is a lot more math based than you think, considering the stats. MAG ii’m not sure how well it’s doing, and it’s on console. Vindictus and DFO are okay, but they out of all the games have the least claim to MMOs.
His difference is size, and a world where things happen. Most of the above games are heavily instanced and there isn’t much in the way of things to do. Get a lot of players in a zone, and something as simple as driving a truck through a lot of npc zombies with players riding shotgun would be ten times better than yet another instance raid. You get rid of math and gear and maybe the experience will be better.
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Hmm, despite working on Guild Wars he doesn’t seem to know a whole lot about MMOs. (DDO has had dodging and hit-detection combatg for years, and DOAC’s realm-vs-realm had something akin to his guild example.)
He should know about action games though, in which case I really hope he’s aware of the fates of Planetside and APB. A larger-scale Left 4 Dead sounds cool … but Left 4 Dead is already out and its multiplayer is free. Why exactly do I want to play his game instead of Left 4 Dead? What does having more players and a different business model add to the action zombie killing experience, except a whooooole lot of lag and additional expense? APB never figured out why people should play it instead of GTA4 multi and died a quick and traumatic death as a result.
Say what you will about MMOs and their icky math, but MMO companies have proven they how to find an audience and give it what they want. That includes icky math, yes, because icky math is how you know that weapon you just picked up is better than the one you have … not an issue when you have six weapons, but a necessity when you have the 6,000 weapons an MMO audience demands.
So far no one has figured out how to turn an action game into a successful MMO. Foge may find it profitable to look into why that’s the case, and how it is that successful MMO companies are able to get customers to come back month after month. (Somewhere someone from Blizzard is reading that “I believe that MMOs can and should compete with the best triple-A games” line and laughing hysterically…)
Epic smackdown. Also, I would like to what what episode of ZP that graphic came from.
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“Now, I’m perfectly okay with devs being outspoken, opinionated and dedicated to challenging the status quo.” – Syp
So why are you having a conniption fit over him being outspoken, opinionated and challenging the status quo?
@Sara — Because he’s not just doing those things, but doing those things like a troll instead of a sensible person. You can uplift something and talk about an ideal without putting something else down, but he doesn’t quite seem to get it. Also, this is a guy who doesn’t like MMOs who’s making an MMO, which is just bizarre to me.