While I’m still dabbling in Guild Wars, putzing my way through Factions (with Prophecies and Nightfall under my belt), I’ve lost the sense of urgency and desire to play more than a handful of times a week. It’s that Guild Wars hard-to-describe detraction, where you know — in your head — that the game is good and you do like it on some level, but it’s also not always as fun and friendly as you’d like. And so I’ve revised my plan to get a mere 15 points in the Hall of Monuments and call it a day, probably after I’ve finished the Eye of the North racial missions.
There’s two things that really dishearten me about this game. The first is that, as I’m focusing on missions almost exclusively, they’re pretty much fail/pass. These missions can be quite long, and if you’re going for the master’s or bonus, you really can’t slip up. One mistake, and your party can wipe or you lose the bonus, and you have to start all over. I’ve left the game for multiple days because of a bad mission and the agonizing thought of having to do it all over again.
The second is that the grind is simply atrocious. Say what you will about other companies, like Turbine, but someone over at ArenaNet either got engaged to grind during the development process, or the team realized they needed to heavily engage the brakes to slow down player progress lest they run out of game. Maybe both. In any case, many titles are simply out of grasp for all but the hardcore, and even the easier ones require weeks if not months of work.
So while I haven’t abandoned Guild Wars, mentally I’ve all but moved on to Guild Wars 2 in the hopes of a much better game that still retains the creative genius and artistry that is ArenaNet’s strong suit.
But then there’s that worry. The worry that ArenaNet hasn’t lost its love for the grind, that lurking behind the promise that “every level from 1 to 80 will take the same amount of time” lies a horrific grind in sheep’s clothing. It’s hard to imagine a game where leveling comes quickly and regularly of not having a grind at some point to put the brakes on, unless either the content is so compelling we’ll just do it for its own sake or there are plans to keep pumping out new goals and content at a steady pace.
I also look to the dungeons when I think about potential grind, because we know that ArenaNet has plans for us to repeat these dungeons many, many times in various modes. Again, it’s not bad in and of itself, unless it becomes a chore as we slog through run #5,601 to level up that title or get an achievement.
Honestly, I have no idea, just a concern — not even a worry. What do you think: will Guild Wars 2 import Guild Wars 1′s grind?
Almost all of the grind in GW has to do with chasing titles. The thing to realize about titles in GW2 is that they are expressly there for people who like to grind, and are very much an after-the-fact addition to the game which was not part of the original design philosophy. Titles didn’t exist at all until Nightfall!
Until the Hall of Monuments requirements were announced, titles were always an optional extra that there was no particular reason to pursue except for e-peen value or because you didn’t have anything else to do in-game to keep yourself occupied. It was a bit disappointing to me that titles feature so prominently in ramping up your Hall, but fortunately it’s easy enough to get to 30 points without going for many titles at all. They are easily the most time consuming way to acquire HoM points.
So while I expect titles will continue to be there for those who like to grind, I don’t anticipate that you will *have* to grind anything in GW2 if you don’t want to. Pick the things you do like in GW2 and stick with them; there is enough variety in terms of activities and rewards for those activities that you will still progress and feel better about it.
Two points to consider: first, many of the titles were added either with later campaigns, or in separate updates long after the original Prophecies campaign. A few, like chest opening and identifying rare items have been around from the beginning or near-beginning, but the lucky, vanquish, and hard-mode mission titles, for example, all came much later. The general player-base had built up the money to spend on quickly acquiring the items needed to advance the titles, or built up the experience and groups needed to finish the harder content.
The second point is that the titles are the *only* grind in the game. Since getting Master’s or finishing a mission in hard mode isn’t required to advance your character or the story, the only benefit to doing so is to advance the title track. For the completion-ist gamer, I can understand that the grind is a bit frustrating. However, for any game that’s been running more than 6 years, there has to be something to keep the players interested and involved. Some games have raid grinds, some have daily quests, Guild Wars has title tracks. That’s what makes “Kind of a Big Deal” such a big deal.
So where does this leave us for GW2? I expect a similar dichotomy, with the leveling and story progression proceeding at a steady pace on one side, complemented by a title track grind of some kind. I think this was pretty successful in GW1 because it made the grind an optional goal, rather than a requirement to get through the next dungeon.
One final thought: the title tracks aren’t the best way to advance your Hall of Monuments after you get 5 title statues (if you’ve finished Tyria and Elona, you’re probably close to 5). The problem that you’re really running in to is that the HoM was really an attempt (a successful one, imo) to get long-term players interested in GW2, not to bring new people in to GW. Remember, the Eye of the North expansion was initially supposed to bridge us into some GW2 lore, but they delayed working on GW2 after GW:EN came out. Because of this, I think ArenaNet felt that they needed a flashy way to get players interested again that wouldn’t be thrown aside as more broken promises from marketing. The Hall of Monuments does that, and it also rewards players for sticking with the game beyond just finishing the campaigns. The heavy grind you’re feeling now is a result of trying to pack 5+ years of content into a few months. That’s like trying to see all of Yellowstone in a day instead of a week.
This may not be the way most people feel, but for me, the grind in GW is done just about right.
We talk about solo/group/casual/hardcore/PvE/PvP/etc when it comes to games and content and most of the time it seems that people understand they won’t necessarily like every part of a game, but that the different playstyles do need to be represented in some fashion. Hardcore raiders don’t necessarily want more quests and story, the casual solo player does not necessarily want more high level group dungeon content. Those parts of the games are accepted, though, and it works out well in most of the MMOs I have played.
So what about the players who like the grind? Or, if not like the grind, at least like the feeling that comes from getting the reward at the end of said grind? When that reward is a game-affecting item, there could be issues I suppose, but when it is a title? I’d say that is a good way to compromise between the people who don’t want a huge grind in the game and those who want the somewhat-exclusive cosmetic (or mostly cosmetic) reward.
The twist here comes with the Hall of Monuments. Now people want those titles not just for GW1, but for the unlocked items in GW2. Thing is, as far as I know, the unlocks are still going to be cosmetic.
So, while I might want to get to 50 points and be GWAMM in GW, I know it probably won’t happen any time soon. If ANet does have grindy parts of GW2, as long as they don’t impact the actual gameplay for me (I really don’t think the grind will be in getting to 80), I’m ok with it being there for those who want to go for it.
I was going to ask “What grind?” really to this post. Guild Wars is perhaps the least grindy fantasy MMO title I have played in terms of grind you have to do to get by.
There are certainly grindy elements to gaining various titles etc, but this is nothing you have to do.
The grind you get are only from the goals you have set yourself really. Just set different goals if you do not want to grind.
I came to comment, but I see everyone else has already beat me to it. Oh well, at least I can get a blog post out of it. Thanks, Syp!
Apart from titles, what about the grind for gear/ecto/etc? And apart from titles, what endgame goals does the game really have?
I played Guild Wars from launch. For a month I thought it was the best MMO I’d ever played. After six weeks I stopped playing and didn’t touch the game again until the GW2 buzz reminded me GW1 existed.
Unless my memory misleads me, Guild Wars was always intended as, and promoted as, a PvP game. The “endgame”, therefore, was PvP and no PvE endgame was expected to be required. As I recall it, when the game went live it turned out that the majority of players were focusing not on the expected PvP but on PvE. I remember much discussion of this at the time and that the game was, somewhat cumbersomely, retrofitted to meet the demands of a PvE audience.
GW2 seems to be being designed the other way up, as a PvE game with optional PvP (although I confess I don’t understand the way server vs server PvP is going to work in GW2). What implications that has for “grind” I can’t really guess.
Personally, if “grind” means “killing monsters to level up” then I’m all for it. And if “flat leveling” means 80 levels that each take two weeks to do I’ll be even happier. I bet it doesn’t, though. I bet leveling is just as fast-tracked as every other post-WoW mainstream MMO has been.
I suppose that would depend on your definition of “endgame”. For me, the end game is finish all of the campaigns, Eye of the North, and get 30 points in the HoM. After I finished the campaigns, I only played GW when my wife wanted help with something. I’ve never gone for ecto runs, only been to Fissure of Woe twice, and despise the look of the obsidian armor set for every class. I played for the story of the campaign (and based my purchase-price accordingly). If you define endgame as “getting the most expensive armor” or “raiding FoW” or “winning the PvP ladder”, then you’re signing up for a grind of some kind.
My wife, on the other hand, wants those max titles. She’s had her account almost as long as I have, but she’s a lot more willing to spend an afternoon watching old Star Trek episodes and unlocking chests or vanquishing areas. She’s also very plugged in to the economy; whenever I get anything remotely worthwhile I ask her to sell it because she knows the value better. I spent almost every dime from all of my combined characters in order to buy up the items to get me to 30 points in the Hall. My wife? She’s at 26 points in the Hall and still has nearly the maximum amount of money you can store in the bank vault.
And if getting 30 points in the Hall is your measuring stick, it’s critical to remember that the Hall is easier the longer you’ve had your account. Even though I’m MMO-ADD, having filled all my character slots before I stopped playing really helped me out. Birthday gifts for mini-pets, stockpiled crafting resources, cash earned while leveling, upgrades salvaged from drops, etc.. all go to increasing your Hall points either directly (minipets, rare crafting items for weapons and armor) or indirectly as cash that can be spent fulfilling the goals.
Unless you really must have a particular skin for your weapons/armour, or multiples of them, or the rarest possible runes to put on them, there is really no grind for gear or for ectos. You get plenty of money for general adventuring just by playing the game, especially in campaigns other than prophecies. Cash in large amounts is really only needed for, you guessed it, titles.
As far as endgame content other than titles?
- PvP in various formats
- elite dungeon runs, or other forms of personal / group challenges (note most titles are not really about challenge so much as time invested)
- Alts!
-
-
I should also note that GW is not really designed to be that one game that consumes your entire gaming life. The assumption that you will stop playing when you run out of stuff to do that is interesting to you, is built in from the beginning. So GW has less need of an extensive endgame, because it expects that you’ll jump ship until the next expansion arrives and the business model is built around that.
The things I enjoyed doing the most were capping elite skills and getting Protector titles. When I finished up what I wanted to do there, scaled way back on playtime and just pop in once in a while now.
Honestly, any time you play for a goal other than for the fun of the game, it will be a grind. I don’t know how many time’s I’ve heard of people power-leveling to the highest level, only to complain about how much of a grind it was. Likewise, sometimes I am really trying for one particular drop from a dungeon boss, so I run the dungeon again and again until I get it. And when I do that, sometimes, I wonder where the fun went. There are some times when everyone in the party has run the dungeon a dozen times so no one even talks to each other any more. That’s when I question why I am playing at all. But usually, I’m the other sort. Usually I’ll meander around doing whatever I think is fun. Sometimes, I PVP, sometimes I dungeon, sometimes I farm for materials, but usually I enjoy myself. Someone once pointed me to this link. I think it’s awesome, and I hope you do, too:
http://www.l2pnoob.org/index.html
“Apart from titles, what about the grind for gear/ecto/etc? And apart from titles, what endgame goals does the game really have?”
I’ve been playing for nearly six years and have yet to acquire a single ecto…. because I’ve never ever been in the Fissure of Woe.
For me the fun is in seeing what I can do; the Protector and Survivor titles were the only ones I really strove for because of the particular challenges involved, and Protector isn’t so much a grind as a pressure to “get it right the first time” (and I do feel your Cry of Frustration about one minor slip-up on a mission costing you a half hour or an hour; I wasn’t sorry to see the end of that trend once we got to Eye of the North).
Also present is the thrill of build creation. Capping that last skill that a build is synergized around and taking it out with the heroes to vanquish a difficult area or kill that boss that always laid waste to your party is immensely satisfying (I imagine along the lines of taking your new max-level character through a low-level dungeon that gave you grief in a more typical MMO).
And, since vanquishing is financially rewarding, from time to time I find myself with enough money to purchase the goods that lead to a new elite armor set. I don’t think of them as HoM points, but the spoils of victory and a reward to myself for a job well done.
In other words, I truly believe that if you approach the game from the standpoint of trying to see the content, the rest will follow. Eventually you’ll figure out how to get that tricky bonus, and eventually you’ll earn the gold to buy the shiny (and completely unnecessary) item you wanted for your trophy shed. I’m sorry if that makes no sense, I just don’t really think in terms of “endgame goals,” whatever those are. The term is kind of meaningless to me, no matter how many ways I’ve seen it explained.
Pingback: Killed in a Smiling Accident. » Blog Archive » Wisdom is knowing what to do next, skill is knowing how to do it, and virtue is doing it.
Ze Randomessa is right on the money for a nugget.
(Though nugget is currently addicted to FW’s rat pellets, but that’s another story – GW scratches a different itch.)
Endgame GW for me, where I am now, is making and testing builds, whether on my toon, on my heroes, or the amalgamated monster that team builds with heroes are now. Especially since ANet now lets you basically run any sort of heroes you want for a small extra feeee. XD
So – Thinking up builds, writing them down furiously, taking them out into the field (whether pvp or pve) and seeing if they do what I want. Iterating and iterating until they DO do what I want, or I give up what I wanted as being stupid or impractical.
When the builds do what I want, immediately run to other such tinker-toy friends and squeal madly at them to LOOK LOOK TRY EET YOU WANT TO YOU KNOW EET.
For endgame content, I’ve seen most of it at least once, but I don’t farm any of it. Though I may start, what with bringing more heroes.
Everyone’s doing it, that’s doing it at all, with the hero changes.
But tinkering is the real love for me. All else is icing.
As for HoM, Maladorn’s likening trying to cram your HoM to trying to see Yosemite in one day is dead on. I have ?30? ?32? achievements in HoM, and I did not grind for any of them. Indeed, before the HoM calculator came out, I think I had ?25?. And I could have more rather easily… except that I HATE HATE HATE HATE cartography with a passion. It makes me dizzy and grumpy and sulky all at once. So I don’t do it.
In many ways, GW to me is all about choice. And it therefore has the problem that comes with being all about choice – where people don’t want to choose for themselves, and begin to resent that there isn’t anyone who will choose their priorities for them.
If you were to go by the hype machine, probably not. It seems Arena Net is hellbent on improving (defying?) some of the “accepted” MMO norms and practices. A world that is affected by our actions, or inaction, quests that can have multiple outcomes, mobs that don’t spawn out of thin air to be XP fodder.
That being said, how do you really avoid grind in a genre that centers around perpetual online play. I mean PvP can certainly alleviate that to some extent, but at the end of the day you cannot create content a fraction of as fast as the average gamer will consume it. If we are to except that MMOs are designed to be massive timesinks (the F2P ones are especially guilty of this) that are expected to always provide something for the player to do, even if it is repetitive (hello dailies!), then how do you really avoid the whole grind design mentality. At some point, some developer or coder will put in a repetitive mechanism, with a carrot at the end of the stick that you can (practically and through some effort) get to.
I don’t know if that answers your question adequately, but to summarize: I think they will try and claim it is not grindy; it inevitably will be.